Photo: Eurointegration.com.ua
When I arrived in the UK for the Ukraine Recovery Conference yesterday morning (June 21, 2023) at the airport, I was asked by a border control official, «Are you from Ukraine?» when he got my passport. And when I responded, he started crying and said, «We owe you so much – remember that!» And he gave my documents back. I see you’re having your nails done today, also in blue and yellow. What do you think connects Ukraine and the UK from your perspective so much?
Well, first of all, I never thought anyone would have an encounter with a border official that would be emotional. By itself, it is quite an extraordinary thing. But I don’t think it’s unusual in the way that people all across the UK, not just in London, feel about the invasion of Ukraine. People don’t just think back to World War II, about which the UK feels strongly. The UK also feels, in their national consciousness, that when one country invades another country in Europe, it is essentially dangerous for others, of course, but inherently wrong and should not happen. And that, I think, explains why, even when I travel around the country, I see the Ukrainian flag over little churches in villages in Norfolk and Cornwall. It’s certainly extraordinary, and children in classrooms now know about Ukraine. And aside from how warm I think (I hope that made you feel at the airport), just as it does for me when I’m recognized sometimes or when people want to talk to me about it, there is a fantastic understanding of Ukraine that probably was not there to the same extent before the invasion. This, I believe, says some great things about the relationship the country will have in the future.
Do you think this is the impact of what the government in the UK is doing? The media? Why are people so open now to understanding Ukraine so deeply?
I think it is partly that. I think it is how the government and everyone who works as part of the effort tell the story. The media, and UK media, has been quite extraordinary about Ukraine. Most of those correspondents have spent a long time, not just coming over for a day or two. They have embedded themselves and travelled and are telling the stories of some of the worst things Russia has been doing in ways that I think have been helpful and shocking for the UK and beyond. So I do think it’s partly that. But actually, I think it is more than that.
In the UK, people are genuinely inspired by seeing Ukrainians fight back and fight back in every possible way. So someone contacted me yesterday about the video footage. They’d seen a farmer in Kherson whose watermelon field risked flooding from the Kakhovka Dam. And he’d watched this video, over and over, with this farmer who’d got 10 of his friends to create artificial protection for his field. He could not believe that was happening. He’d never seen that in anything approaching a similar situation anywhere.
It is a constant inspiration to British people watching Ukrainians do whatever they need to continue with their lives. And, of course, I communicate this back through my social media. So it’s a virtuous circle. The more they see that they want to help, the more grateful they are.
Where do you see Ukraine in the near future? So we know that the UK government supports Ukraine joining NATO, but what about joining the EU? The UK is not in the EU, but do you support us joining the EU, or should there be any other way of developing Ukraine?
We have always been clear that this is about what Ukrainians want for Ukraine and what the UK government thought was needed for the UK. You know, as far as the UK was concerned, a majority voted to leave the EU, so we left the EU because that is what democracy is, and that felt to be good for our country. Ukraine, the majority of people want Ukraine to join the EU, and therefore if that’s what you want and need for your country. We are an ally country, and we want that for you. We can not influence it because we are outside the EU. But if that’s how you feel and make you progress, that forms part of the UK’s supportive stance for Ukraine.
We invest in Ukraine to help Ukraine become strengthened in the future and to win the peace. So, the reforms work, transparency of judiciary, ease of doing business, etc. These are all things that dovetail with the kind of country we know Ukrainians want for themselves. So, there is a close fit, even though we are no longer part of the Union.
Regarding the conference that’s going on, that’s ending today (June 22, 2023), what do you see? What will be the main directions of the UK support, first of all, the UK and all the allied support to Ukraine this year and in the nearest future?
Well, if we are talking about the conference because that forms actually, I mean it’s a lot, but in fact, it’s quite a small part of all the support the UK is giving.
Except for the military…
Well, military, but also economic, don’t forget, and, of course, there’s humanitarian, there are so many different ways in which the UK is involved in helping Ukraine through this challenging time in your history. But in so far of reconstruction – there are the obvious things where we are using grant funding to support some of the smaller-scale immediate recovery needs. We have almost a year running a program inside Ukraine where we have been replacing windows and helping build bomb shelters. But that’s quite a small pot of money. And, of course, it’s really clear the scale that’s needed. So, I think there are two things that we have done here that are as transformational for us as they are for you. One is the number and range of UK businesses we have used this conference to introduce to your government. And it’s up to your government, of course, to make the pitch to those businesses. Those businesses never thought of investing in Ukraine before, and that unlocks a mindset that will have a beneficial spread effect across sectors as long as Ukraine can show that it is a country where these businesses can operate, they can do business, and achieve. So that’s the first thing. The second thing is enabling initiatives like war risk insurance, which were not on our agenda last year, without which a country that needs to beat back an invasion cannot attract investors. It, too, is a step change for a country like the UK. Instead of saying, OK, yes, we’ll give it five years, and then we will introduce you to people, we did not say that. We said that you need these investors now. You cannot rebuild with grant funding alone. We also have to work with you to create the conditions that prepare businesses to invest – signing up to war risk insurance and also commissioning working groups on Russian assets. These are all step-change issues that I’m certainly proud that we’re doing.
Thank you. Janusz Bugajski, who is a great, well-known expert in the US, UK, and Ukraine, and of Polish origin, says in his book «Failed State. A Guide to Russia’s Rupture» that all European governments, including Ukraine, should prepare for Russia’s rupture, which is inevitable. So we don’t know when it happens, how it happens, but he says that country, that state, as it is, cannot function anymore. And also, we are having internal debates about what the victory means for us. Is it only getting back territories, or is it when we have a situation when it never may happen again? How do you think the UK is ready for this notable thing?
So, first of all, I can completely understand why Ukraine would be having that internal debate. I am the ambassador to Ukraine. I am not the ambassador to Russia. And I do not know enough. I really don’t – to be able to suggest to you what might happen inside Russia. I think that part of the debate is about having hope that an implosion in Russia means that Ukrainians will never have to face this threat again. I am pessimistic about that. I think any actual state that is inherently autocratic tends to be able to operate for a lot longer beyond the time it looks as if change may come. I doubt that, but as I say, I am not a Russian expert. I think that the scale of the task that Ukraine has right now – to recover its territory and push Russia back – is big enough to be focused on right now. And enabling that, which, by the way, is something I absolutely believe can be done, will have its ramifications. It will have consequences for the future, and let’s see what that brings. But the most important thing, given what is being done to Ukrainians by Russians, not just militarily, right now, means any efforts for all of us – who are inside Ukraine – have to be on the here and now. And I completely, as I say, understand the debate. I think it’s an example of a strong, flourishing, democratic society where people enable that debate. And they have those conversations. But I have to put my energy into helping Ukraine win the fight.
Regarding your last comment, the last question is about security and support from the UK. We all heard during these conversations and briefings that investors think a lot about investment security in times of war. Two days ago (June 20, 2023), when I was starting my trip here for the conference, at 4 AM, there was an air alarm in Lviv, which is so close to the EU border, and we had a few drones hitting some targets in the city centre. Then we had been told by the commanders and the press officer of the army that we don’t have enough air defence capabilities to cover all of Ukraine, which is big. And all the investors say that this is the most important thing for them to know that when they build some manufacturing facilities, they will not be shelled by the Russians. What do you think the UK and the allies will do in the near time to help us?
Our Prime Minister said when President Zelensky visited Chequers that air defence was a priority. So, of course, we are one of those countries looking to see how we can bolster it. We have already provided means and will continue to look for ways to provide it shortly. How you secure that for the long-term future is a subject for conversation, right? Nobody wants to think that Ukraine, in the long-term period, is only going to be able to survive by sophisticated air defence. I hope that you will not have to live there in that way in the long term. In the short term… Yes, it is clear to us how important it is.
Thank you so much. Thank you for this great conversation.
Thank you.
The conversation was conducted by Taras Yatsenko